Hmmm... Glenn asked me to get on here and help with a little history...hmm... Most of the bulls above make me think it is a good thing they are history.. I liked 15G calves some at Split Butte... 107H had a good grandson in SBR Marathon Man 257t...
While, I am unfamiliar with Grand Slam and have no idea of how good he was, I'd like to comment on his pedigree, because it relates to a comment from the Sire/Daughter thread where someone mentioned the Art of breeding as opposed to the Science of breeding.
When you read Grand Slam's pedigree, you do find that he is from a half brother to half sister mating, which is effective linebreeding that can produce very good results.
It is the pedigrees of the 2 grand dams that I find interesting. The paternal grand dam AA CAROL DOMINO 206 (12098826) is line bred top and bottom to different lines, with Battle Intense on top and Astor breeding on the bottom. The maternal grand dam, DUNNS ETHEL INT 72X (15789924) at first seems little linebred, but follows a lot of Prince Domino breeding, some Bocaldo which is Hazlett breeding, and some Battle Intense breeding too.
If I have my facts right, then these two cows that seem unrelated are actually both full of Gudgell and Simpson or similar breeding and have a lot of relationship to each other, but a bit further back and on a broader scale, maybe, than the Big Northern breeding.
Big Northern has some of this breeding too, but he also has what I am guessing is about 1/3 or more English breeding that was imported in about the 1950's to 1960's. My opinion is that this actually makes Big Northern the outcross even though he is twice in the pedigree and up front.
Pedigrees like this are what I would call the ART of breeding and it was built up over many decades of the work of many Artful breeders, in this case using both line breeding and outcrossing. I might be wrong, but I think that the science of breeding using numbers only is attractive because it seems to make breeding easier to do, and also that we as breeders can get into a lot of trouble that way, quickly. Again, I make no opinion of the qualities of the bull Grand Slam; but would like to say that while the Art of breeding can be difficult to do and it doesn't always work, but when it does work, it works really well.
Last Edit: Aug 20, 2017 21:26:55 GMT -6 by woodford
I saw Grand Slam at a Field Day held at Granite Hills in the mid 70s. He was an impressive individual...dark, dark red that made the ample chrome that he sported really stand out. Phenotype wise, he was the right kind and size...and better than most that are being produced today.
BUT I would consider Grand Slam to be a bit of disappointment as a breeding bull. The only son of his that I can remember was the one that K State used for a while. I think he did sire a few daughters that were good cows.
Perhaps his lack of success as a breeding bull was partly due to the fact that he came along right at the front end of the frame race and Hereford breeders lost their collective minds chasing frame size at the expense of all other traits and good all around bulls, like Grand Slam, were ignorred because they didn't have enough "air" under them.
I would be interested to know how the daughters were. When at first I saw a 1974 born bull has teat and udder suspension scores I was a bit dubious. They are low accuracies but I guess these figures are based on later priduced daughters , granddaughters, etc. Does that correlate to how he actually bred? Have no experience with the bloodline but would be interested to know from those of you that had them how they actually were.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is run by smart people who are putting us on, or imbeciles who really mean it.
Many years ago I had a client who had Big Northern sons and daughters. Pretty good phenotype if you had the guts to stay in the pen long enough to look. Probably worse than the 85B's and he was terrible. When an animal arches their neck, you should figure they are about to explode. The 85B's often had nice udders, the Big Northern daughters were as bad as they get and I never saw a good udder on one.
Interesting, about 85B's temperament. Our daughters have been mostly reasonably quiet, certainly none would chase people. I don't keep that kind of cattle. It is useful to know how his offspring in other herds are.
Carlos, in my search for old Mark Donald genetics I bought a semen interest in H351 from Chandlers. He is a 326 son and I have a lot of 326 genetics in some of my cattle. I have not used any H351 semen yet, I need to get it done since it will take several years to figure out how he fits.
We like this picture of Vern Robert although it is probably a bit retouched but not heavily. Dad ( Orville) use to get a copy of The English Herd Bull Edition (can't remember the proper name). One year The Vern's ad was historical showing all the bulls used from Vern Robert into the 60's. Quite interesting. Par-Ker Ranch owned a semen interest in Vern Dermot. It was in the early times of A.I. and they did not get too many calves by him. Later owned an interest in Shadeland Dermot and Dermot 18th outright both of whom did them a lot of good